After an anonymous Twitter account posted a series of allegations against Nintendo and how it has blocked the competitive Smash community, attorney Connor Richards returns to the show to discuss other legal and legislative options. And Doubelift announced his retirement from League of Legends. Reporter Meg Kay jump on to break down his legacy.
SPEAKERS: Imad Khan, Meg Kay, Connor Richards
Imad Khan 00:02
What’s up everybody. This is FTW with Imad Khan. I’m your host Imad Khan. And joining me on this Anonymous Smasher edition is Esports Bar Association member and attorney, Connor Richards.
Connor Richards 00:11
Imad Khan 00:12
And later on, we’ll have freelance reporter Meg Kay on to talk Doublelifts retirement from League of Legends. But first Super Smash Brothers picking up on a conversation from last week, much as developed following Nintendo’s cease and desist towards the Big House Online. Because The Big House was using emulated versions of Melee, plus a netcode mod, titled Slippi, Nintendo felt it was infringing on its IP and demanded the tournament to be halted. Since then, a Twitter user who goes by anonymous masher, but on a post explaining all the ways in which Nintendo has actively worked to thwart the competitive Smash scene. The post claims that Nintendo while having a jovial outer facing smile towards the Smash community was actually hurting it behind the scenes, and prevented E-League from broadcasting its own smash tournament HTC was planning on running a tournament series but back down after Twitch and Nintendo had something planned that never ultimately materialized. ESL also tried its own circuit, but Nintendo was unresponsive. Nintendo was willing to partner with ESL on Splatoon however. It should be noted that dream hack, ESL’s sister organization, has run Melee tournament in the past. And in my own conversations with ESL leadership, they have confirmed to me that something was in the works, but ultimately, nothing moved forward as Nintendo became unresponsive. MLG had hosted a Melee event in 2015. And later on did a Smash 4 event. But it didn’t move forward with future events as Nintendo was asking for a $50,000 licensing fee, double that of Street Fighter IV. Red Bull was in talks with Nintendo in the past and in my conversations with Ben Nichol, former senior program manager at Esports at Red Bull, he said that the conversations never move forward. Ghosting seems to be a common trend for Nintendo. Twitch was working on a circuit for Smash according to Anonymous Smasher. And after three years of slow back and forth, according to him, or her, and agreement was signed. But with the release of Ultimate Nintendo back down, saying it wanted to see if the community at large would gravitate towards the new game. Nintendo has made similar comments to me when talking about Ultimate. According to Anonymous Smasher and the tournament organizers he or she has spoken with, there seems to be a pattern from Nintendo. It feigns support of the community, we’re not really supporting it. And said only using it for influence. Its sponsoring of tournament’s is not financial, a claim, which I believe is false and speaking to other TOs throughout the years. Regardless, Nintendo will use tournament’s to promote what it wants to promote. If it attaches its name to an event, It won’t aid on the Smash side of things or any other financial matters according to Anonymous Smasher, but will then provide infrastructure for Splatoon and ARMS tournament if that is the latest game it’s trying to push. Last episode, I ended on asking Connor what he thought he would recommend for the Smash community do if he were its theoretical legal counsel. You recommended pushing a strong PR strategy to put pressure on Nintendo to reverse its decision as this worked back in 2013 with the EVO situation. With the recent information that’s come out, it seems that strategy might not be tenable. So given all of this, what is your new piece of legal advice?
Connor Richards 03:21
Yeah, so like you said, this is not a strategy that is going to work the same way. One of the things that I mentioned is that the Smash community should present a really strong sales pitch to Nintendo about the economic opportunity that is available if you were to take advantage of the competitive community. Clearly, as shown by all these different reports and from your, in my conversations with different people in leadership in the Smash community. This is a sales pitch that’s been made for the better part of a decade. And the reality of it is Nintendo has established a pattern here of like you said, feigning interest, always kind of leading people to believe that that just around the corner, there was a larger deal a circuit a league to make happen that would be profitable, both for Nintendo and the Smash community, and it just never materialized. And ultimately, it just leaves you with the question of whether Nintendo is ever going to be interested in making this materialized or whether they’re just taking advantage of the Smash community. Which means that your your option of trying to create this productive sales pitch and create this beneficial symbiotic relationship is effectively dying if not dead already. Instead, that means that you from the Smash community standpoint have to play defense. One of the the figureheads in the Melee community Crimson Blur, he’s been a to and a commentator in a couple different leadership roles. He did a video on this free Melee stuff and one of the points that he made was for the long time the goal was to get Nintendo partnerships and sponsorships. But increasingly, the sentiment among TOs is that those days are over. And the goal of free melee is just to get Nintendo to leave us alone. That means when you plan big events, you do everything that you can to support them. And if Nintendo decides to step in like they did in The Big House situation, you make a large ruckus, you create this negative PR, you create this grass roots movement, in order to shut down the negative actions that Nintendo is taking. And that I think, is a strategy that you can still employ here. Notably, this is this Big House situation is actually the first time since 2013, that a smash tournament has received a cease and desist from Nintendo. That doesn’t mean that Nintendo hasn’t had issues with the Smash community since 2013. One of the things that’s been discussed during this, this Free Melee movement is Project M. Project Melee, which is a basically a mod pack that changed Super Smash Bros. Brawl to incorporate some melee mechanics. And Nintendo really, really didn’t like Project M, but because of this potential for negative PR, they had to use kind of more subversive means in order to get Project M deplatformed. And try to take it down.
Imad Khan 06:19
You know, I see the sentiment online is kind of, you know, there’s nothing else to lose at this point. Do you would you recommend going forward with tournament’s that either Nintendo has partnered with the past or hasn’t partnered with, and essentially seeing what Nintendo will do, and what that whether that be anything beyond a cease and desist letter?
Connor Richards 06:39
It’s hard for me, especially as an attorney to ever recommend just daring someone to sue you, which is effectively what you would be doing. But it does depend a lot on the different tournament organizers to think about is to think here about what you’re actually risking. Because for MLG, for example, Major League Gaming is they had a smash tournaments for a long time. And they even had a circuit briefly. And they basically said, we haven’t been able to secure different licensing deals. And they were reportedly denied rights to stream and stuff like that. And they basically said, well, like we have, we have this large esports organization, we have too much to lose. And so we can’t keep running Smash events. And that’s, that’s been a sentiment that’s been echoed by some larger esports companies. But I mean, if you’re a grassroots Smash scene, that’s, you know, say you’re a Smash club at a college. And you’re trying to host some kind of a regional or national tournament, and you get some kind of a C&D from Nintendo, you maybe aren’t risking as much. So maybe that’s something that you consider and something that you prepare for how you’re going to, you’re going to deal with the fallout.
Imad Khan 07:46
So it may not be something you recommend for an MLG. Well, not that I’m saying you would recommend you try to force the company to sue you. But it’s definitely you could see why it isn’t a tenable for an MLG. But maybe a tournament series such as The Big House or Apex, where they kind of only just do this one thing, which is Smash tournaments.
Connor Richards 08:08
Yeah, so they’re there, it’s it’s a lot more tenable of an idea, like Blur was was mentioning the the goalposts here have shifted in terms of what the Smash community actually wants to accomplish. Before it was, we want Smash to be the size of League of Legends, or Dota, or CSGO. We want this to be a viable career path where people can make a lot of money, it can be on the forefront of people’s minds, you can watch Smash tournaments, on ESPN, all that kind of stuff. And I think now, with the amount of support or lack of support that Nintendo has demonstrated, I think instead, the goal has turned to just consistent grassroots sustainability, in terms of just like, this is a hobby that people can consistently enjoy without, without interference.
Imad Khan 08:54
You know, I don’t know if you followed the situation with the YouTube channel H3H3 Productions, and kind of the fallout of free use that happened when they made a commentary video on one of on some other YouTuber that didn’t necessarily like them. And this whole lawsuit, and, you know, it was just kind of call to arms by the internet community saying that, you know, we have to essentially stand up for free use, and he took on this lawsuit. And you know, they had about 200,000 or they have a couple hundred thousand dollars donated to them and to help with legal fees. And they had a few lawyers on it, including what the video game attorney on Twitter. And even then, you know, if you listen to their commentary, after all it was done, they said that it was highly, highly stressful that the amount that the community donated ended up not even being enough just because it was so expensive, but ultimately, you know, they won the lawsuit and they ended up you know, setting a bit of legal precedent. So let’s assume that you know, a Big House or whatever tournament series does decide to move forward, Nintendo does submit legal action Let’s say the community does say, okay, well, we’re going to support this tournament series. And we’re going to start this huge donation drive to try to fight back. I mean, what are some of the implications that people might not be considering with this strategy?
Connor Richards 10:13
The implications that people might not be considering is the fact that you have a lot of layered copyright issues here. So one, like we mentioned briefly last time is just the the broad broadcast rights that Nintendo possesses over their intellectual property, which most legal scholars agree are nearly absolute, which means that if you’re playing a Nintendo game for almost any reason, they can decide that you don’t get to publicly broadcast it. So that’s, that’s one of the issues that you’re really fighting against. Now, when you’re talking about kind of the subversion or changing of IP, just the ability for Slippi to exist even outside of a broadcast environment or people to play Smash tournaments without broadcasting them. That’s a different legal issue you’re talking about. Potentially fair use, you’re talking about what we talked about last time a little bit in terms of like, how exactly you’re changing the IP, what form does that look like? One of the other things that Nintendo has demonstrated they don’t like is something called UCF, which stands for universal controller fix, which is just like basically a memory card that gets plugged into a gamecube that changes the way that melee works a little bit, which makes some of the advanced mechanics a little bit more accessible. That’s something that like legally could be an issue, depending on how courts interpret exactly the way that it’s that it that it operates. And so the question is twofold. One, how big of a fight Are you prepared for? Because you’re suing one of the biggest video game companies in the world. You’re talking about a company that operates in a large number of different countries. So you have all these kind of jurisdictional issues, not just across the US, but across Europe, across Asia. And then the second thing is what what exact issue are you fighting for? Do you want to try to claim that streaming a game that you commercially purchased, should be a right, and try to make that kind of an argument? Do you want to try to lobby for legislation to clarify this given that the the DMCA Act, you know, hasn’t been doesn’t really doesn’t directly speak to this issue and hasn’t been revised in some time with this in mind. So all these are kind of different battles with with varying analyses that attached to them, as far as you know, what exactly the you can accomplish. And I mean, either way, I mean, one of the questions you asked me last week was, can you put any kind of a ballpark estimate on trying to sue Nintendo and how costly that would be? And I mean, I think the H3H3 issue that you mentioned, is illustrated here, I mean, you’re talking hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of dollars, if not millions, depending on you know, where all you’re fighting, what the lawyers, you’re hiring, how big of a firm, all that kind of stuff. And so this, as far as crowdfunding, this kind of an action is going to be a colossal undertaking, if that’s the direction that people decide they want to go.
Imad Khan 13:09
You mentioned something interesting in terms of legislation, do you think I mean, there are a few Congresspersons that are more sympathetic to maybe the gaming community. Do you think an appeal could be made to them to try to push a bill through the House and the Senate that could maybe make it so that, hey, if you like a bill that says, If you legally purchase a video game, specifically, you are allowed to stream it, you know, however, which way you like something, something like that? Do you think that’s a potential strategy?
Connor Richards 13:35
I actually think that’s the strategy long term. I think long term when you’re talking about the way that this copyright legislation and intellectual property legislation more broadly, because you, you know, you have some trademark issues and stuff like that, the way that it’s written, broadly speaking, the only way that this market, I’m talking to here about streaming broadly, not even just esports, the only way that I think that is sustainable is if you are able to push through legislation that speaks more directly to this issue, and gives judges more of a concrete legal framework to actually work with. Because I think, if you’re if you’re going to pop up with all these lawsuits in different places against different game developers with with slightly varying issues, you’re gonna get a lot of variance in decisions, both because like you mentioned last week, I mean, a lot of these judges are older folks who don’t really understand necessarily how all these different tech issues kind of interlock with one another. And so you’re going to get a lot of inconsistency there. And so you need that kind of long term sustainable solution. Now, if you ask me, you know, what specific Congress people you go to do we have any legislation out there that’s already drafted that we should be supporting? I don’t think I haven’t been able to find anything like that that’s out there yet. So that’s in my mind kind of the biggest open issue for you know how to draft this stuff and who to contact to try to get lobby to get it through. And then obviously the the political clout that you would need to actually get that through.
Imad Khan 14:56
I mean, it to me, it seems that probably the most logical person to go to would be AOC. I mean, she’s already streaming on Twitch, she just did a stream yesterday, raise $200,000 for charity. Either her or Ilhan Omar, both of which have, you know, done stuff on Twitch. And it could be as simple as you know, setting up a meeting with their liaisons have their offices to try to figure out if something could be done.
Connor Richards 15:21
Definitely, definitely. And then also getting the right people in the mix to try to figure out how to draft this stuff. Because, like you said, I think AOC, Ilhan Omar, this the rest of The Squad. I mean, I think those those kind of groups and caucuses, I think would be really receptive to these kind of ideas, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they know, the inner workings of copyright law. So you would also need to, you know, rope in informed people who could help you draft this legislation in a way that you’re not going to have, you know, secondary harm or secondary issues created by that. And then yeah, I think you would, you would need to figure out channels to get in communication with them and figure out you know, your political allegiances and stuff that would actually be able so that you could get this past.
Imad Khan 16:04
Yeah, I’m trying to think like the lobbying organizations that I feel I would go to in this situation with the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
Connor Richards 16:10
Yeah. And I think I’m sure this is an issue that’s on their radar. I would be I’m not all that familiar with their lobbying history. But I would be shocked if this has this. If this wasn’t an issue that they’ve they’ve considered and have some preliminary kind of actions that they’ve taken on it.
Imad Khan 16:27
Yeah. So if the legislative front is the way, maybe the Smash community or even like the larger streaming community should try to rally around, what bits of wording should they be looking for in this potential piece of legislation.
Connor Richards 16:42
So what you want is, generally you want default rules as far as interpretations of Terms of Service and user license agreements, such that the natural reading of those kind of things, preserves your right to stream something that you’ve commercially bought. You’re never going to get legislation to back piracy. So if you’re talking about trying to stream some game that you you got for free through some, you know, random website on the internet, that’s probably not going to happen. What you want is to be able to commercially purchase the game and be able to stream it. And then in addition to that, one of the things that’s been mentioned by a few legal scholars, our mutual friend, Michael Arin mentioned it, for example, is the ability to purchase something called like a compulsory license, which is something that’s available in the music industry. Which basically means that if you want to host an event, with you know, a number of people, and it’s not particularly feasible for you to police whether or not all of these people have commercially purchased the game and all that kind of stuff. You have the ability to go through a an open channel to purchase a license for the game, without the publisher having too much control over what that license actually looks like. And then obviously pay a fee so that the the publisher is still making profit on their IP. But that allows you to go forward with an event that you want to put on without worrying about getting a C and D from Nintendo.
Imad Khan 18:08
Wow. I mean, this just opens up like a huge kind of other can of worms that I hadn’t considered until he did this episode. Yeah. But you know, I guess before we close out the show, I want to ask, because you know, you’ve been following this heavily. I’ve been following this heavily. Apparently, Nintendo has also had has also been messing with the ARMS competitive community, which I didn’t even know that that was something that they were doing. Based on kind of all your readings, all your findings. Do you have any other like final key takeaways, something that you would want to tell the Smash community?
Connor Richards 18:34
So the big, the big thing that you should realize here is that Nintendo wants the Smash community to exist in some capacity. But they don’t want is for it to define IP. I think one of the huge takeaways here is for the fact that all of these events have been offered, organized. And all of the all that these event organizers have asked from Nintendo is for Nintendo sign off. They haven’t even necessarily asked for financial contribution for interest infrastructure for any of that. Which means that Nintendo doesn’t just see this as an economic neutral on a large scale, for some reason, they view a competitive community as an economic negative to their brand. That said, if you look at, for example, the Nintendo Switch reveal trailer, one of the one of the last things that they leave you with, in that reveal trailer is a team with matching jerseys walking through a filled stadium to play Splatoon. And so what that means is they they want this competitive community to exist in some in some form, for marketing reasons. And so what this means ultimately, like the takeaway here, is if you’re trying to organize a competitive community, you can do that. You should push for it, you should create a grassroots movement. To protect yourself. You should support any any kind of event that runs the way that you want it to. But you shouldn’t rely on Nintendo and you should always playing defense, which is an unfortunate takeaway to have to, to come away from but that’s the reality of the situation, unfortunately.
Imad Khan 20:08
And with that, Connor, thank you so much for jumping on.
Connor Richards 20:10
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Imad Khan 20:12
And now I’m joined by Meg Kay. Last week TSM Yiliang “Doublelift” Peng announced his retirement from professional League of Legends after nine years paying a prolific player in the NALCS has had a storied career backdrop to my massive success, controversy and personal tragedy. The AD carry has a few accolades under his belt, he’s the first player to reach 500 kills. Is a five time LCS all star. Was LCS’ his most valuable player in 2018 summer, and LCS is Finals MVP in spring 2019. He also holds the record for most LCS titles, at eight. So Meg, where does double lifts retirement fit into the larger League of Legends professional story? While he’s known Michael Jordan, like figure in Faker, he does fit somewhere in the pantheon of League of Legends greats.
Meg Kay 20:58
Doublelift is a very, very interesting figure. Because obviously there is a reputation around around North American League of Legends that it’s kind of domestic success is there are a couple of players who achieve really, really great domestic success, but then maybe weren’t able to translate that internationally. So I think when you’re looking at a player like Doublelift, you have to think a lot more about what they have brought to the sport holistically, as opposed to just purely in terms of achievement, which not negating Doublelift achievements, I think he’s done some amazing things in North America. But I think Doublelift’s attitude, and the way he created a brand for himself, is something that’s quite unique, specifically in League of Legends of the sport of esports. But more specifically in esports, as a whole, and I think that kind of brand value and that like personality, that character has brought something really really special to League of Legends, which I don’t know, if we will see replicated for I think quite a while.
Imad Khan 21:55
You say something special. I mean, for people who don’t follow League of Legends at all, I mean, how would you describe that?
Meg Kay 22:01
Um, it’s the confidence bordering on arrogance, but that is backed up by at least domestic performance. It’s that kind of thing of this guy who is so assured and like self confident that he is better than all of the people like the classic catchphrase, ‘everybody else’s trash.’ That kind of confidence. And that personality is not something we see a lot of in League of Legends, it’s a lot more kind of, not respectful, but shy, I would say in terms of player personalities. But I think he really marked a shift away from this kind of shy, quiet personality into something that’s a lot more kind of social media or stage ready, if that makes sense?
Imad Khan 22:40
Yeah. And you know, as you mentioned, he hasn’t, you know, won walked away with a world championship title. So some of that bluster really justified?
Meg Kay 22:52
That’s a very good question. I think it’s very easy to downplay his success, because it’s only in his region or whatever. But there are actually very few players who can say that they have performed to an incredibly high level on the international stage. And it tends to be we see these same kind of faces, making it to the real upper echelons of performance year in year out, but starting to change now, but that’s only really been a thing within the past two years. So I think, yes, his international performances haven’t been too great. I will be the first to admit that. But I also think you can’t negate the success that he’s found in North America and the consistency with which he’s been to Worlds. He may not have done the best when he was there. But he has been an incredibly consistent attendee of the World Championship.
Imad Khan 23:38
A player like Doublelift, somebody who has all these accolades in North America, I mean, to a player like him, how important was a world championship? Was it something that, you know, he was pursuing with all of his energy and effort?
Meg Kay 23:51
It’s very hard to say. Um, Doublelift is not a person who has spoken a huge amount about international success. And I think North America as a region is not a region that talks about international success, just because it has been so unachievable, and the climate amongst North American fans is that, ‘oh, that’s just that’s not for us like that. We’ll just never achieve anything at Worlds, we’ll just keep doing fine in like regionally and then we’ll go to Worlds will flop, we expect it. Like there’ll be this massive conversation about oh, what needs to change in the North American infrastructure, and then nothing will change. And we’ll just keep going the way that we were.’ I think for a player like him, it’s actually very difficult to have these World Championship aspirations and to be public about these World Championship aspirations, because there just isn’t the history either for him or for North America to back up the possibility of those ambitions being realized. So I think he probably any player wants to win, right? They wouldn’t be playing if they didn’t, but I think he probably did have ambitions for kind of world renowned, but unfortunately, that’s just not how things ended up folding out for him.
Imad Khan 25:01
Definitely one of the most shocking moments in Doublelifts career was the murder of his mother by his brother in 2018. And it definitely shocked the entire community. What was interesting about it was Doublelift himself didn’t take a break from League of Legends to go deal with this. He continued competing because it was, if I remember correctly, it was like right at the cusp of an LCS championship. I mean, what what does that say about Doublelift as a player? Or maybe what does that say about his relationship with his family?
Meg Kay 25:31
I mean, this is a very difficult one, because obviously, it is very public knowledge that Doublelift started his career, being kicked out of his house by his parents, because they did not want him to pursue League of Legends as an esport. And he kind of couch surfed for a little bit until he found somewhere that he could live. And that was how his career began. So it’s obvious that his relationship with his parents is very fraught. But I also think people’s ways of coping with grief are very unique. And it’s quite hard to comment on how another person handles a tragedy like that. But I think it’s just a case of processing things in your own way. And I think it’s incredibly admirable what he did, I think, going to play even after such a huge, awful tragedy is very, very admirable. And I think that was his way of processing it. Like to go on to win was kind of his way of being able to deal with the emotions that he was feeling. Obviously, I wasn’t inside the guy’s head, I can’t comment on it to that much depth. But if I had been in his shoes, that is how I would have explained that decision to myself.
Imad Khan 26:37
And he’s 27 years old now. So he’s retiring. I mean, you know, when compared to other sports athletes, very, very young. I mean, where does Doublelift go from here? does it become a coach? does it become a commentator does become a streamer? Does he go back into the regular workforce?
Meg Kay 26:52
From what I understand he does not have a college education. So I am assuming that going into the workforce would be fairly difficult. Obviously, there are jobs that can be hard without a college education, but he would be taking quite a significant pay cut from what he’d been receiving as a player. I think in terms of just his personality, I wouldn’t say he is he would get on well, on an official Riot broadcast. I think he’s too blunt. Like you have to you can’t just say oh, everyone’s trash. As a commentator, you have to kind of provide nuance, and I’m not sure if nuance is really his speciality. But he’s had very successful streams in the past, he took a break from competing, I can’t remember exactly what year it was, and just focused on content creation. And he did really, really well. So I think, possibly just looking at a purely content creation, or like something like I will dominate is doing now something like that avenue. I think that would be a very easy path for him to take. Should he choose to look for that route after retiring.
Imad Khan 27:51
Yeah. And he’s also dating somebody rather prolific and League of Legends, correct?
Meg Kay 27:55
Yes, he is. He is dating. I believe it’s tsms, Chair of directors or chair of directors, the head of the board of directors. I can’t remember her exact title, but Leena Xu, she’s a very prominent figure in TSM.
Imad Khan 28:08
Is it possible that he just goes into team management working alongside her?
Meg Kay 28:14
It’s hard to say. I think management is definitely not for everyone. And I don’t think that the skill set of a pro player lends itself to moving into a managerial role. And I think too, he would not get the job just because he was with Leena. I don’t think I think TSM as a brand values, its infrastructure too much to allow something like that kind of nepotism to go on. He could definitely look into that. But I also don’t think it would particularly suit his or any pro players skill set.
Imad Khan 28:45
And then last question, while he has this tremendous following here in North America, where do you think he’ll ultimately land in the global world stage in terms of how players talk about him?
Meg Kay 28:58
Doublelift is incredibly famous. I think that’s undeniable. I think along with people like Faker and Rekkles, maybe people like Perkz and Caps now, or Uzi, maybe. He’s definitely among the biggest names in the esport. I think that’s undeniable. I don’t think he will ever achieve the kind of Uzi or Faker status just because he does not have the performance to back it up. So he will definitely go down in esports history, not necessarily for his performance or his skill, but for the the personality that he brought to the league and to competition and for how outspoken he was and how kind of like, massive of a fan following he’s getting. He has fans all over the world that he tweeted something a couple of weeks ago that was like a translated response from a really really dedicated Chinese fan, who had been who had posted something about him on Weibo, the Chinese social networking service. And yeah, I think Doublelift will definitely go down in history, if not for his performance for the sheer kind of level of fandom that he’s created around the world
Imad Khan 30:02
And with that, thank you so much for jumping on Meg.
Meg Kay 30:04
Imad Khan 30:05
And that was FTW with Imad Khan. If you like the show, please rate subscribe and share. Full transcripts of the show as well as links to our Patreon can be found at ftwimad.com. To follow Connor and keep up to date on esports and law, follow him @xzibitatlaw. That’s X-Z-I-B-I-T at law. To follow Meg and all the work she’s been up to you can find her at @_megito. To follow me in my writing over at the New York Times The Washington Post and elsewhere find me at @imad on Twitter. And Ron Lyons is our audio producer. With that, we’ll catch you guys next week.