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Episode 32: Fall Guys Esports ft. Tyler Esguerra and Josh Marcotte

Imad Khan September 4, 2020 73

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We now know which teams from the LCS and LEC will be advancing to Worlds in Shanghai later this month. Tyler Esguerra from Dot Esports jumps on to give his thoughts and predictions. And later, Josh “Jaaahsh” Marcotte of Panda Global explains why the team formed a competitive Fall Guys roster and where the scene may go moving forward.


SPEAKERS: Imad Khan, Josh Marcotte, Tyler Esguerra

Imad Khan  00:02

What’s up everybody, this is FTW with Imad Khan. I’m your host Imad Khan. And joining me today on this fall guys esports edition is Tyler Esguerra of Dot Esports.

Tyler Esguerra  00:11


Imad Khan  00:11

And later on we’ll have Josh “Jaaahsh” Marcotte on to talk Panda Global launching a Fall Guys esports team. But first Worlds. This past weekend hosted a slew of competition in League of Legends to see which teams would advance to the World Championships in Shanghai. There were ups downs and one notable disqualification in Cloud9. So Tyler, going into worlds actually, before we get into worlds, you know, this past weekend competition leading into worlds I mean, what were some of the main storylines and kind of how were some of those storylines upended?

Tyler Esguerra  00:41

Well, I’m one of the biggest stories that people were kind of surprised by was the kind of collapse of cloud nine this year, um, and it wasn’t even this year. It was very, very sudden it was like, they dominated the Spring Split in North America. They went on a 35 in 2 win streak, I believe, going through the spring into the summer, they won the first eight games of the summer. And everyone thought that they would, you know, be the best team coming out of North America to go to Worlds. But the last few weeks of the season were pretty much disastrous for their team. It was started off with some people saying, Oh, you know, they’re just experimented with their compositions or they just had a bad day. But once they started to actually lose multiple games to teams that they shouldn’t be losing to and they even had a 0-2 week in there. And suddenly, everybody’s starting to sweat a lot of Cloud9 fans really okay, I don’t we don’t know what’s happening. And with their last their most recent loss to TSM, it kind of was clear. one of their biggest game plans moving forward into 2020 was to emulate kind of the playstyles that they saw from teams like FunPlus Phoenix from last year, which was a really good mid jungle synergy. As we saw throughout the spring, for example, nisky and blabber work really, really well together to roam together and affect their side lanes. And for some reason, and whether it was, you know, the meta shift, or just they kind of maybe got complacent, we’re not sure yet. That kind of synergy might have broken down a bit. And it felt like their cohesiveness as a duo kind of broke down a little. And as a result, the rest of the team couldn’t function as properly because that playstyle wasn’t working

Imad Khan  02:33

well, you know, kind of explained to, to the listeners, you know, if a team is, you know, playing so dominantly I mean, how badly do things really have to go for them to be completely kicked out?

Tyler Esguerra  02:43

I mean, when, like, you just got to start like it’s it’s a, it was really, really a drastic turn because of how much they’d won. And it’s because the Spring Split technically doesn’t count towards worlds either which makes it even worse, because the summer was like everything they had to go to Worlds. And they ultimately just faltered, not even like they faltered in the last couple of weeks of the regular season. And then during the playoffs, all of those problems just kind of culminated into these really, really bad losses. That kind of snowballed onto one another, I felt like their first round loss, kind of snowballed in a bad way into their TSM series. And it just carried on from there. And I don’t know if there’s going to be any changes to that roster or to the coaching staff because it feels like they didn’t adapt to maybe the changes in the meta. Because I don’t think that like their opponents were playing incredibly well either. I don’t think that they were, I don’t think that they’ve improved a ton like for example TSM when they beat cloud nine, they still had a lot of problems in that roster and Even Doublelift said in the beginning, like Doublelift even said that this was the most stress he’s ever felt in his life in terms of a series. And sometimes they didn’t know what they were doing either. And so for Cloud9 to go from such from the best team in North America to falling against a team like TSM, who, in my mind still hasn’t gotten that kind of roster cohesion yet, like they seem good enough now and I feel like that went against C9 has really helped their confidence but before that series, it didn’t feel like they were all there in terms of playing as one unit for C9 to lose against a team like that just goes to show that these problems are running pretty deep.

Imad Khan  04:36

You know, of the teams that qualified from the LCS and the LEC it’s Liquid, FlyQuest, TSM, Fnatic, G2, Rogue and Mad Lions. Based on kind of these seven teams and their performance who, which team do you feel has the best shot at winning Worlds?

Tyler Esguerra  04:54

That’s it’s pretty easy. Yeah. G2. Like they had a weird Summer Split. Just because I think that they were kind of well, like yonko said already said that they’re trying to take it a little bit more easily because, you know, burnouts pretty easy to fall under, in esports. And so he said that they had started to kind of move away from the game a little bit, play some other games try to avoid burnout because that’s the worst thing you can ever experience as a player, because then you just don’t want to play anymore, which means that it affects your play your gameplay, and then that affects your team. And so a lot of people when they started losing games in the Summer Split, and they were kind of hovering as a fifth fourth place team, everyone’s like, Oh, no, like the age of G2 is done. Everyone keeps forgetting that if they want to turn it on, they can turn it on whenever they want. And we saw that in the playoffs. Obviously, they lost a Fnatic team that I guess finally got their their themselves together. But everyone’s still scared to G2 because, like I said, they are so creative with their drafts, they are explosive. And I’m telling you, there’s still I I’m sure that they still have some tricks up their sleeve in terms of drafting and play styles because they are. so they’re still one of the deepest rosters in the West, in my opinion, they’ve got so much talent and especially in the best of five, I think that they can still succeed. So I think that G2 is still out of those seven teams, the most likely.

Imad Khan  06:22

And I mean, this year at Worlds they’ll be playing on home to home soil, right, because things were changed due to the pandemic.

Tyler Esguerra  06:28

Well, they were they were going to play in China already. It was like

Imad Khan  06:34

2021 that was changed, right?

Tyler Esguerra  06:36

No, no, no. So this year was supposed to be in China, but then they weren’t sure. So that’s why they had to like they weren’t sure if they were gonna host it. Yeah, yeah. But then they went ahead with it because they’re going to do the bubble.

Imad Khan  06:44

Well, you know, speaking of the bubble, I think this is a good time to transition to that. So worlds is taking place in Shanghai in this bubble. Only players, teams, coaching staff are allowed no press. I mean, what and you know, obviously there are gonna be no fans. So will this give American and European teams and advantage knowing that, you know, there won’t be 10,000 screaming Chinese fans rooting against them?

Tyler Esguerra  07:06

Yeah, they haven’t they haven’t really grown into, you know, what are what are called tournament shoes, right? Where you get used to the idea of playing in front of large crowds. And maybe, maybe it’ll feel more at home for them knowing that it’s just like an empty room.

Tyler Esguerra  07:06

I mean, in a way, I feel like there are some certain players who feed off of that energy. Obviously, there are other players who prefer not having like, yeah, like you said, 10,000 screaming fans and like, they have the headsets that actually block out the sound, but you can still feel the vibrations through your feet. That’s what they’ve said. And that all adds pressure that you could never believe, right? And then you look around yourself and you see all these fans. And that’s obviously a crazy amount of pressure to put on someone. But there’s also other players who love that they love the moment. And so depending on the type of player it’ll have to there, it’s just going to have to depend on the type of player that you have. Um, I think that one of the biggest impact points that you know, not having a crowd is going to affect is the new players. For example, like Knight and Kanavi from JD G they’re those they’re coming into their first Worlds appearance ever. And to be honest, this isn’t really a complete Worlds experience, because a lot of the experience is the fans.

Tyler Esguerra  08:24

Yeah, it obviously there’s still gonna be pressure on their shoulders because it’s Worlds and you can’t take away that pressure. But yeah, like, not having those fans there is a huge part of it. And I think it’s just a huge part of sports in general, right? Like the NBA not having like every single NBA player that we can talk about. They say it’s different. It just feels different. Yeah,

Imad Khan  08:44

Do you know do you know if Riot is gonna have what the NBA is doing? Where they have screens and people kind of like video conference and

Tyler Esguerra  08:49

I don’t think I haven’t heard any news about that. It’d be cool if they did that. But I don’t know if they will depending I guess it depends on like the venue to see if like viable to maybe I don’t know, projected onto like the seats maybe I’m not sure. There hasn’t been much

Imad Khan  09:05

 I just feel that somebody is gonna throw up like a Pro Hong Kong thing and then it’s going to cause a huge, huge, huge problem. You know, what’s interesting is that compared to the NBA bubble, the world bubble will not have press. I mean, you as a journalist, what do you make of this? Why do you think Riot has, Riot       and China have pretty much said no, no press allowed?

Tyler Esguerra  09:26

Well, I mean, I guess it just safety right. Um, makes sense, because you’ll have multiple people from all over the world.

Imad Khan  09:33

Yeah. But isn’t that kind of unfortunate that like there’s no independent sources documenting this very historic moment of like a world championship happening with it within a bubble?

Tyler Esguerra  09:43

I mean, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s pretty sad, but at the same like, Yeah, it is. It is pretty tragic. But I think that, you know, it’s so so we’re going to be getting to talk to them through online means, like the players inside of players and the coaches. Whatever. But of course, it’s not going to be the same as actually being in front of them and talking to them. Um, but again, I understand that they want to keep their players safe. They want to keep the staff safe. And they try to they’re trying to minimize risk. And like I said, like, when the NBA, you’re getting, you know, a few people from like the same place like the US or something that are going to be doing these interviews, which is why they’re allowed to get in. But for Worlds, which is an international, true international event, you’re getting people from Europe and North America, and Korea, China, and all these other places that will all convene, and I guess that’s too risky for them. I got it. So it’s nothing to get sad, but again, minimizing the risk for the players and staff and things like that.

Imad Khan  10:47

Yeah, one of the most interesting things, at least about the NBA bubble is actually reading some of the accounts from journalists and just kind of this weird alternate reality that the NBA is experiencing while the rest of the country is kind of melting down. So I’ve really kind of been Listen, reading those reports and I long to kind of be there right where you just get like your Mickey Mouse fed buffets and whatnot. And I don’t know, but it’s going to be interesting. I guess ultimately, your final thoughts on who you think if you’re a betting person would would take worlds this year,

Tyler Esguerra  11:19

The smart, the smart analyst and me looking at Top Esports I was like the meta has shifted now, where proactivity aggressiveness, like aggression is king. And Top Esports has that and they have just individual incredible talent. Knight is arguably the best player in the world right now. JackeyLove, I told I said like, a couple years ago when this he was like 17 or 18. I said, This kid’s gonna be the best ADC soon. And although he still has some of those kind of pitfalls that come with, because he’s very aggressive to a fault on sometimes, but I still think that his mechanical skill is one in a million. And I think that he’s like him, Knight, Karsa in the jungle. I think that they just got too much skill and synergy and just pure aggression, that they’re just going to run over teams of worlds. But I wouldn’t be surprised if we see another like LPL versus LEC finals just because of how because Korea they of course, it’s it’s Korea, they have great players, but I don’t think that they’ve adapted to this kind of style yet. I still think that they’re going to get overwhelmed by like in the in the overall aggression that like the Chinese teams and even the European teams to an extent, right. Um, I think that they can do really, really well. But I do think that it’s going to be a European team and a Chinese team at in the finals.

Imad Khan  12:50

Well, before we close up the segment, we still have a fan of the week question. And our fan of the week question comes from Brandon.

Brandon  12:56

Hi, my name is Brandon. And my question for the show is what differences do you see in how the FGC is covered? versus how other esports are covered like LoL or CSGO? What do you guys think is lacking? And what could be better?

Imad Khan  13:12

Yeah, so that’s an interesting question, Brandon. So, you know, the way I have always seen coverage differ between the FGC and maybe like league or Counter Strike. I, you know, I kind of treat it how maybe coverage of the NBA or NFL compares to like the MMA in that, you know, the FGC is very underground, very grassroots, kind of like the MMA, while you know, the NBA or the NFL. It’s very mainstream. So you have a lot of production talent, like, let’s say from an ESPN esports going towards these big banner events. For League, for CSGO. And then when an FGC, I mean, you know, I did a lot of FGC coverage for ESPN. So whenever an FGC event does come around, you know, they know get some decent traffic and some hits. So you know, those send me out all you know, do some write ups and that’s it. You know, very seldom do that. They, you know, bring a whole camera crew with them. And you know, there’s a few reasons for this. It’s because like, they’re the FGC, there are a lot of different games in it. So there’s a lot of different communities. So it’s hard to see how, you know, covering a story about Mango, who’s a Super Smash Brothers Melee player can attract like the same number of clicks and viewers if you know if instead they did a story about Faker or Doublelift, right? So while mango is is very popular for the FGC, you know, he doesn’t have like a million plus followers on Twitter. So I’d say it’s kind of like in the resources that you see and what’s dedicated, and that just goes back into the audience. The only way I could say that really shifting is if the communities for the FGC start really giving articles written about them a lot more traffic and a lot more clicks, right. So the reason why like ESPN was always okay with doing more Smash coverage was that it would still bring in a decent amount of traffic because it would always jumped up to the top of the r/Smashbros subreddit and a few Facebook groups and whatnot. So it would be kind of worth it to them while let’s say in the Tekken, like a Tekken story unless or Street Fighter story unless it was like some really breakout important piece of news like Arslan Ash winning Evo Japan and then evil North America, this like kid from Pakistan. You know, other than just those like really unique cases, you know, doing a write up on how Tokido or knee You know, one x tournament just didn’t really pull in the same number, the same amount of traffic.

Tyler Esguerra  15:31

Tyler, for a lot of people, it’s not worth it to send it to all of these different lawyers like league and cs go, they’re just this, it’s like, way bigger in scale. And so and it’s one main big league at the end of the day, and I think that.

Imad Khan  15:45

Right. The fact that like league is just one game and FGC is like what a cool community of games right?

Tyler Esguerra  15:53

Exactly a multiple multitude of games. And it can be really tough to like focus in on certain games, not knowing that Like maybe it won’t be as popular like you don’t know the numbers because there’s so many so that I think that like he said, You got to really just come from the community it has to come from the community kind of just pushing, pushing a, you know the scene a lot more in terms of traction, because you just need to work harder.

Imad Khan  16:21

Well with that Tyler Thank you so much.

Tyler Esguerra  16:23

Yeah, yep.

Imad Khan  16:24

 And now I’m joined by director of logistics and Fall Guys pro player for Panda Global Josh “Jaaahsh” Marcotte. Earlier this week, Panda Global announced that it would be getting into team esports. The organization has largely centered around fighting games calling itself the number one 1v1 esports organization. There was some speculation as to what game the team would jump into. Nobody expected Fall Guys. Fall guys is the latest internet sensation developed by Mediatonic. It’s a battle royale game that meets the show Wipeout it zany. It’s funny, it’s hilarious to watch, but fall guys esports? So Josh, normally I have other journalists on this show, but there aren’t many journalists. Covered competitive Fall Guys. I wasn’t even aware that there was a competitive scene at this point. So first, are there even tournaments or fall guys? I mean, how did you guys even come up with the idea to launch a Fall Guys team?

Josh Marcotte  17:12

Sure. So there are actually tournaments and events that are happening now. Obviously Fall Guys is fairly new came out just a few weeks ago, it might be a month at this point. But we have seen competitions and we have seen live events that are admittedly very viewer friendly viewer centric as opposed to truly competitive. But there are sort of rule sets that are emerging and ways of competing in the game. We had Tenno, a production company a couple weeks ago do one where teams of four had 90 minutes to collect as many crowns as they could, and that ended up being very exciting. Just a little while ago. Another sort of format emerged that’s based on points, how many rounds you make it. Even if you don’t get a crown, you get points for getting further into the competition. And it created a really dramatic finish as people tried to scramble for points in the last second. So even though it’s obviously very casual, there is a space for it to be played in a somewhat competitive way. But obviously, no matter what we do, it’s still Fall Guys. It’s still fun.

Imad Khan  18:13

You know, the, the when I when I first saw the news, the thing that came to my mind was the efficacy of competition, right? Because even in a game like Fortnite, which does have, you know, these multimillion dollar tournament players do complain that hey, you know, if I randomly get this really powerful gun, then I have this unfair advantage. And to me Fall Guys, just sometimes I’m sure there’s plenty of skill, but sometimes the zaniness can harm that competitive actifit efficacy. Do you agree with what I’m saying? Or am I missing something?

Josh Marcotte  18:41

No, I think I think you’re absolutely right. I think that there’s a lovely nexus in the world of esports. Right now, a lovely space in the world of esports. Right now where we can have these events that, sure, on one hand, you can have things akin to chess that are presumably all skilled, but I also think there are plenty of instances of games that have gotten very big, that do have elements of randomness. And if the element of randomness is that an unaffiliated player grabs you last second and prevents you from getting a crown. I don’t think that makes it any less exciting an esport. If anything, I think it adds just like with Fortnite, a level of intrigue, what could happen in the last second to undermine the strategy, you could have the perfect run, you could you could know exactly how to get from A to B, with no mistakes, but there’s always the human element added in and I think that’s kind of cool.

Imad Khan  19:31

Yeah, you know, I wonder, it’s always cool until you know, there’s this multi million dollar prize and then somebody ends up losing for, you know, for something that they feel was illegitimate. So, I mean, what does this what’s gonna happen on that instance eventually occurs?

Josh Marcotte  19:47

I think it comes with the ticket of what you’re joining. If you join a Rock, Paper, Scissors tournament, for instance. You’re gonna have to understand that you could be the most skilled player in the world. There’s still going to be some some randomness or inherent to who you get matched up against or whatever. I don’t know that we’ll see multimillion dollar prizes in Fall Guys. And if we do, I think that’ll be a really interesting experience to have. But at very least, we keep in mind and this is maybe from the Panda Global point of view. We’re keeping in mind that this is a fun game with really zany things that happen, it’s very watchable. It’s a lot of fun to watch people, you know, interact with other folks who know or know of. And the social element is really great, especially right now in a time where we don’t see a whole lot of each other face to face. And there aren’t so many games that really encourage socialization as much as Fall Guys does.

Imad Khan  20:45

I mean, I think one of the cool things about the idea of a competitive Fall Guys scene is it. I just don’t see how anybody could not watch it right? already. The game is just so fun to just watch all the clips online that I see are so entertaining. I mean have we heard of any, you know, major esports leagues that are that are going to really jump into this and start investing some real money into this kind of competitive scene?

Josh Marcotte  21:08

We’ve already seen a couple sort of big players come into the picture Red Bull sponsored something fairly recently. Twitch Rivals has followed event every sorry, has a fall guys event every Friday. And so we already see some of the sort of familiar faces in esports. I’m not sure about league structures. I’ve not heard of any sort of larger league structures come into play, but again, with names like Red Bull and Twitch Rivals. The steps are already there, the basis is already there, whether or not folks feel like it’s legitimate esport or not, it has the legitimate esports underpinnings already.

Imad Khan  21:41

Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, I don’t know if like the hardcore esports fandom will push back against the idea just because the game is so beloved at the moment. I do see that you know, as if it continues growing in popularity and viewership like what is preventing an NBC Sports Network from like picking it up because generally NBCSN When they do get into esports, they stay away from the Counter Strikes. They stick to like the Rocket Leagues, the games that are more widely, I guess you would say family friendly.

Josh Marcotte  22:09

Exactly. Yeah. And this is this is the epitome of non violent, the most violent this ever gets is the awkward like oof sound when you bump into somebody? And yeah, sure there’s there’s some games where you can push other people off and and they fall kind of lightly into slime and presumably are reborn somewhere. The the the mythos of the whole game or the mythology of the whole game is really ambiguous. And I think that’s it’s good. But I agree, I think this is, as opposed to Fortnite, which has elements of gun violence and the sort of thing I’ll be at very cartoon highest and sort of silly. Fall Guys is insanely marketable in that regard.

Imad Khan  22:44

Yeah. So you know, one thing that I’m really curious about are some of the techniques that have come up in competitive Fall Guys, you know, that usually happens when a game gets super competitive. What are some of these techniques that you and your team are uncovering, or maybe their exploits? I don’t know how you call it and how do you think it’ll affect the future kind of meta game strategy?

Josh Marcotte  23:04

Sure. I think one of the cool pieces about the fall guys community is that it’s comprised of so many folks from across gaming, that we’re seeing different folks from different countries find different techniques. I know a lot about for instance, how to route my runs on the more race base levels from people who have a background in speed running, of course, right, it makes total sense that they would know they would have expertise and figure out how to best route things. Alternatively, I understand I get insight from from my fighting game background when it comes to things like mind games, if I have say a tail on one of the tail minigames, and I’m trying to juke the other person, I sort of lean on my own knowledge of conditioning and what people might expect from playing fighting games that sort of gives me an edge there. And so in terms of of techniques that are coming across, it’s right now a lot of things are leaning on how to get across levels faster how to move faster movement when you first start playing Fall Guys feels really unilateral, and it isn’t especially deep, but there are elements to it that make you able to move faster jump further the sort of thing that do take practice and finesse and I’m excited to see as the time goes on. As more players start to develop these will start seeing folks maybe who are specialists in for instance, landing with very little recovery time. I can’t believe I just use the expression recovery time when talking about Fall Guys, but here we are. There’s all these little things about collision boxes and as we get more into the trenches of what makes this game function obviously on one hand, we have to accept that the game is built to be very silly. The physics are built to be very silly kind of ragdolly. And so some things won’t carry over. For instance, you will be seeing too many Kara cancels or too many sort of complex fighting game things built in unless they’re accidentally there. I did see actually though that you can cancel like the lag of falling in a certain way, which reminded me so severely of a lot of like anime and traditional fighting games, where you cancel animations with others, League of Legends as well to an extent. But yeah, the techniques are exceedingly simple. Nothing yet has really struck me as impossible for anyone to do.

Imad Khan  25:16

And then how did you guys recruit the players on your team? How do you guys find them?

Josh Marcotte  25:20

Sure, so everyone on the panel will eSports to Pentagon Pentagon will fall guys team was already part of the organization. Kony and Marss come from the Smash ultimate side. Full stream comes to the rebels of either side, I come from the staff, but also with the Smash ultimate background. We had Wolfie VGC, a Pokemon world champion as part of our team. We also have Katana Prime, who joins us fairly regularly our Mortal Kombat player. When the game first came out, we were definitely excited about it as a team. We had had our eye on it for a while, and we built ourselves up right away to be one of the teams that played it on release weekend. We wanted it to be something we played together because it looked ridiculously fun. And even in the previews, the E3, the three showings from a year ago, we’re still stuck with a few of us. And we were excited about the potential for it. And as we played it in the first week, we realized there’s quite a bit of talent that kind of transcends gaming within our team for this title. And what began as, huh, I wonder if we have the components of a team very quickly turned into, Oh, my gosh, four is the limit for a team. We have seven, eight or nine players that really are doing very well. How do we fit them all in and we eventually develop this sort of idea of, well, we should treat this like an esport then and have roles right have positions that people sort of fulfill and that way the team isn’t especially have been heavily bounced towards one kind of game or one competency. And so we’re we’re always shifting players will come in and come out during scrims we have a sort of core for but it’s shaky, someone might get dropped that sort of we’re embracing the fun of the title in also in the competition of the esports team.

Imad Khan  27:02

Did you guys get a salary bump?

Josh Marcotte  27:04

Ah, I didn’t. I can’t speak for my other players.

Imad Khan  27:09

Well, I mean still really, really cool. I’m totally excited to see more Fall Guys events and some real pro teams take it. I just think the entire idea of it is so silly, but definitely something that is also equally wholesome. So with that, thank you so much for jumping on Josh.

Josh Marcotte  27:27

Of course. Yeah. And I hope everyone continues to have fun with the game. We’ve seen a lot of traction recently and social media of folks that are having the perennial you know, try hard versus casual debate. But I think what’s great about a title like Fall Guys, and and the team such as ours is, it shows that there’s a space for everything, and a game can be fun across the board, and we’re looking forward to still having fun with it.

Imad Khan  27:49


Josh Marcotte  27:49

Thank you so much, and that

Imad Khan  27:50

And that was FTW with Imad Khan. If you liked the show, please rate, subscribe , and share. Your support will help our show grow. To see full transcripts or links to our patreon, head on over to ftwimad.com. If you’d like to follow Tyler and his work over at Dot Esports, give him a follow on Twitter at tyler_is_online. If you’d like to follow Josh, you can fin him at jaaahsh on twitter. That’s J-triple-A-h-s-h. If you’d like to follow my writing at the New York Times, the Washington Post and elsewhere, follow me at Imad on Twitter. Annie Pei is our producer. If you have any questions or would like to submit a fan of the week question, reach out to her at pei_annie on Twitter. Joe Domeq is our outreach manager and Ron Lyons is our reasearcher. With that, we’ll catch you guys next week.

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